Hand tracing features (1/3) - Reference layers/objects
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Story template: “As a [persona], I [want to], [so that].”
Story
As a hand tracing artist I would like a set of features and keyboard shortcuts so that my time-consuming repeating workflows are directly supported and simplified by the software.Description
When hand tracing ie. a digitized sketch with for example the pen tool quick or constant access to compare with one or more source files - the scanned digitized sketches - is vital. The workflow is simple: the user draws outlines of a reference image and often fills the created objects with gradients or solid colors as well. Seeing both the reference image(s) and the result of the hand tracing simultaneously on the screen is key. Having specific reference objects/layers would greatly support the hand tracing workflows. From time to time the user wants the reference objects hidden for a brief moment - or longer - this must be easy to accomplish.Reference objects/layers should act as click-through layers. The reference image is just a visual guide and should thus not act as a traditional layer blocking working on layers/objects underneath but simply serve as a visual guide during the hand tracing proces. It should be possible to toggle the visibility of the reference layers with a single keyboard shortcut. Several reference images are sometimes needed on a canvas/in a project, so it should be a setting on the individual layers/objects.
The issue that this solves is the current lack of such features where a reference layer/object can disappear in the long list of objects in the layer panel, and the proces of finding, hiding or showing them is tedious and frustrating as this needs to be done several times in a workflow and sometimes non-stop during handtracing.
Scenarios
A) A reference layer with a scanned sketch drawing is placed on top of the layer stack with a 25% transparency and a tracing layer underneath. The reference layer is partly visible and the user can use all tools in VS on the tracing layer using the reference layer as a visual guide. As the numbers of objects in the layers panel grow, the reference layer does no harm, but is constantly partly visible while working.
B) A reference layer below the tracing layer at 100% transparency or whatever transparency. Whatever is drawn on the tracing layer covers it (if at 100% transparency of course). If objects are created below the reference layer their content will be selectable and editable because the reference layer is a click through layer although covering the lower layers.
C) Switching to outline mode still displays the reference images (but with an option for regular rendering or light greyscale rendering)
D) In scenario A-C the user can instantly hide or show all the reference images via a configurable keyboard shortcut - a toggle shortcutAcceptance criterias
- Each layer has a layer setting to enable/disable a layer as a reference layer
- Multiple reference layers/objects in a document is possible
- A reference layer is a click-through layer that can be on top of the selected layer without interfering with/blocking the pen tool etc.
- The transparency options of a reference layer is similar to regular layers
- There is one configurable keyboard shortcut for instantly hiding or showing all reference layers (a toggle) in both normal and outline mode
- Reference layers are visible in outline mode
- Reference layers in outline mode can be displayed normally or in greyscale (currently only displayed in greyscale) (setting)
- A toolbar button for toggling visibility that can be added to a panel is added
- A toolbar button for enabling/disabling a layer as a reference layer is added
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@Ingolf I appreciate you taking the time to write out your ideas. That said, it seems like most of what you are describing already exists in VS.
I often use reference images, either photographs or my own sketches. Typically I paste them onto a layer and lower the opacity of that layer and lock it. I then create a new layer above that I use for all pen strokes, brushes, etc. This way all my vector work is contained within that one layer.
It's easy to close up the vector editing layer to see the reference layer.
You could also put the reference layer on top and set it to multiply and work on layers below
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Algorithms are there, yes, but not the UI.
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@Ingolf I'm not really following. What algorithms are there and what options are needed to be added in the UI. It is possible to overcrowd the UI if we try to make every task have a place in the UI as well
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@Ingolf Interesting idea.
Did you try recording an Action that performs the specific string of adjustments on a bitmap image, from placing the bitmap on the canvas to the moment you can start tracing?
An action could help with most of what you request here (when applied to bitmaps not to layers), except the special displaying of the bitmap when switching to Outline Mode.
And the Action can serve as a sort of prototype, to help the developer understand the suggestion better.
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@Ingolf said in Hand tracing features (1/3) - Reference layers/objects:
Reference layers are visible in outline mode
I added an image to test how VS would affect it in outline mode.
It appears VS already grays out and lowers the opacity of the image when switching to outline mode - this is what I would want it to do.
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An action can probably do it, thanks, but these stories are about the user interface mostly for existing features making it easier to use and remember how to use the program for everybody.
I really miss these UX features myself.
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@Ingolf Got it! Is see here 3 new actions:
- mark a selected layers as reference.
- toggle the visibility of all reference layers in one step.
- toggle the locked state of all reference layers in one step. I would not lock (for click through) by default. An additional shortcut could be used for this to turn on /off.
I will need to find an another term than reference (already used for something else) and "guide" is also used.
I think this is doable, I do not see any technical issue. I added it to the backlog, may get back with questions later.
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@vectoradmin Ideas for tracing "reference layer" term:
- Plate Layer (like the plate in a printing press)
- Tracer Layer
- Tracing Layer
- Source Layer
- Hero Layer
- Archetype Layer
- Proto Layer (as in prototype)
Hopefully something there can inspire you.
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@Ingolf With all due respect, I'm having a hard time understanding what this idea brings to VS that is not already a part of VS already.
The rest of it I question if it's not really the role of a raster program to prepare the graphic for better tracing with the pen tool.We already can create a layer and adjust the opacity and the color mode for that layer, lock it and work on a layer above it or below it (based on the color mode chosen). That self-made reference layer so to speak, has the same abilities as what you are describing. It is not easily lost because it's on a different layer entirely from the layer you would be designing in. It can be easily turned on and off, made grayscale or not, etc.
I can understand creating some custom actions (I thing you were referring to them as "algorithms" earlier) if that helps you get things set up.
I can also see the value in being able to label a layer so at some point, we could click on or off certain customized labeled layers.
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It is suggestions for ease-of-use improvements that would significantly speed my workflow up, up. It is very, very inspired by current features from Krita that implemented them in close collaboration with artists. It was also requested in the Affinity forum by several users. So it is not features grabbed out of the thin air.
Doing it the old-school hard Adobe way is not my cup of tea.
Seen from @vectoradmin s chair it is also about onboarding and attracting artist with no Adobe history - a growing number - and users like me that expects more than the raw features and tons to remember.
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@Ingolf What if the name of this layer type in Krita from this list here?
https://docs.krita.org/en/reference_manual/layers_and_masks.html#cat-layers-and-masks
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@b77 said in Hand tracing features (1/3) - Reference layers/objects:
@Ingolf What if the name of this layer type in Krita from this list here?
https://docs.krita.org/en/reference_manual/layers_and_masks.html#cat-layers-and-maskshttps://docs.krita.org/en/reference_manual/tools/reference_images_tool.html
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@Ingolf said in Hand tracing features (1/3) - Reference layers/objects:
It is suggestions for ease-of-use improvements that would significantly speed my workflow up, up. It is very, very inspired by current features from Krita that implemented them in close collaboration with artists. It was also requested in the Affinity forum by several users. So it is not features grabbed out of the thin air.
I'd be interested in links to where this is mentioned in krita and specifically requested in the affinity forum. I'm always open to having my mind changed. Right now, as I mentioned a couple times in this thread, most everything you requested is already a part of VS. Not only that, but It's muscle memory for most users already.
I'm trying to understand how what you've described speeds up your workflow. Instead of a redundant panel geared toward your personal tracing preferences, why not take advantage of the powerful customization already in VS? Actions, new top menu folder, etc?
Doing it the old-school hard Adobe way is not my cup of tea.
I'm not sure what you mean by this bring the "old-school adobe way", every design program handles things as I've described. Create a new layer, add your reference image, lower the opacity, lock the layer, work on a new layer above. This is the expectation and assumed workflow in everything from clip studio to adobe to krita, to affinity to procreate, etc.
Seen from @vectoradmin s chair it is also about onboarding and attracting artist with no Adobe history - a growing number - and users like me that expects more than the raw features and tons to remember.
This is not a strictly adobe thing. This is already common knowledge use across all apps already. It sounds more like you have a unique workflow and want to bend VS overall to that workflow, at the detriment of other users who do not want to clutter up the UI with repetitive tools and panels. Not everyone works the way you do and VS cannot have custom panels built in for every potential user.
A complex full featured program like VS is already going to get detractors who feel it's UI is too "busy".
VS does a great job of giving the basics and common use items within easy reach on the UI. The rest is buried a little deeper and if you need more specific tool control, it's there. A full featured program like VS is going to require remembering shortcuts and deeper feature locations; there's no way to get around that and simplify down a complex program to fit everyone's specific needs without it becoming completely cluttered. This is where the value of the existing individual customization of VS comes in.
Create a custom new menu bar option with the tools you specifically want easy access to. Create custom actions for yourself, use the custom panel arrangement presets (i described in the other related thread and something that has been requested in VS already)
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@Ingolf said in Hand tracing features (1/3) - Reference layers/objects:
https://docs.krita.org/en/reference_manual/tools/reference_images_tool.html
So it's not a special layer type that does what you describe?
Anyway, I still think creating an Action (a string of commands) that change a bitmap image the way you need it for hand-tracing (even if it doesn't do everything you need) and posting it here would be more persuasive for fellow forum members.
You can then say "This recorded action takes me up to here but no further (not possible to have temporary opacity change for the image at the press of a button/ when starting a new path, for instance), that's why a special layer type that does the other parts automatically is needed".
So I'm not saying your suggestion/idea is bad, but an Action would help justify it better.
EDIT: Another advantage is that if you would post an Action, the developer or somebody else can explain how to improve it and achieve the other parts you think it can't do.
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@Ingolf said in Hand tracing features (1/3) - Reference layers/objects:
An action can probably do it, thanks, but these stories are about the user interface mostly for existing features making it easier to use and remember how to use the program for everybody.
I really miss these UX features myself.
Where are you seeing these UX options in other vector programs?
I'm in full support of actions in VS. Since everything else you mentioned is already in VS, this is a chance to maximize customization without compromising the UI for everyone.
You keep mentioning your suggestions this would make it easier to use VS, but you've not answered specifically my questions as to how.
If the solution can be found that helps you but does not add clutter to VS, wouldn't that be the ideal solution?
Are not actions and custom menus within your own copy of VS created for such a situation as this?
This way you can create your own keyboard shortcut as well that works for you without taking one from the limited supply for the users on the whole. It would be a wasted key command for myself for example, to dedicate one or two strictly to hiding certain layers in the layer panel@vectoradmin said in Hand tracing features (1/3) - Reference layers/objects:
@Ingolf Got it! Is see here 3 new actions:
- mark a selected layers as reference.
- toggle the visibility of all reference layers in one step.
- toggle the locked state of all reference layers in one step. I would not lock (for click through) by default. An additional shortcut could be used for this to turn on /off.
I can get behind these as actions. I think this will improve as we create our own actions and share them with each other.
I'd even love to see the ability to change the tint of the layer bar itself in the layers panel to signify what we want it to based on our own use of VS. Every layer we choose to use as a reference layer, we could make blue tint for example, making it easy to go in and click them on or off, lock or unlock easily. Another person may want to save a copy of their live strokes on an extra layer for backup and tint those types of layers yellow, another user may want to use color tints in the layers panel to represent items in the background, mid level and foreground.
An option like this leaves a lot of freedom to the user to determined their own methods that suit them. Creating whole new redundant panels may help a select few, but does not represent all users
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I went over to krita to look at the link provided in this thread. From what I see, krita once had a reference photo docker that stored reference images within that could be dragged onto the document and placed wherever. In the newer version, they've gone away from that and now you can paste or drag images right onto a layer from the source location.
There are options to modify a reference image within krita by adding contrast or making it black and white. Krita is a raster program, so that's expected. The rest of the features listed are essentially already available in VS.
The current method of importing and using reference images in krita is near identical to how we currently do it in VS
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@vectoradmin said in Hand tracing features (1/3) - Reference layers/objects:
I will need to find an another term than reference (already used for something else) and "guide" is also used.
Suggest not using any term for this - instead, generalize this with a tagging feature. Allow the user to define tags and assign those tags to layers and/or objects, then toggle the visibility by tag in a Tags panel, or lock a tag to treat all layers/objects so tagged as being locked. Could also have a context menu option to select all layers/objects with a given tag.
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Inspired by Krita. Not duplicated.
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@Ingolf I think @b77 had a great answer in his post here an hour back. See how far you can go with actions and also what kind of custom panel arrangement would suit you and share that in the forum. Before we can fix a problem, some of us would need to see clearly the problem itself
