Node behavior versus other vector apps


  • Global Moderator

    i dont know if this is just a question or a bug - but I've noticed when editing nodes in VS, that they retain a certain amount of information that other vector apps do not... So often when I am deleting extra nodes along a curve, the remaining nodes seem to hold up the curve just fine, even though it does not make sense why the path would still curve where it does. Sometimes this is a great thing! other times, it's a struggle - like in the example I am sharing here
    Here I am trying to fill in a section of this butterfly that union-ing it missed. You can see me deleting nodes at the bottom of the negative space that i want to get rid of to close up the hole. As I delete them, the path more or less retains the shape, even though there are no longer nodes there to support it doing so. I would expect it would close the section quickly instead...
    I copied the original over to illustrator to see how it handled things - and as I expected, as I deleted each node starting in the same place, there was not a path resembling where the old nodes were anymore
    I would expect VS to handle things the same way Illustrator did - if only because it makes sense logically. Though I wonder if the settings in VS that keep the look of a curve even without the node being retained could come in handy somehow?



  • @Boldline What if you just want to clear some unneeded nodes but keep the path roughly the same? Doesn't seem that unusual to want to simplify a path that way.

    Btw…

    What if segment selection was possible and you hit Backspace — what should happen? A "straightening" of that segment only? Or a replacing of that segment and the other two connected to it with a straight line?


  • Global Moderator

    @b77 If I'm deleting nodes, I would expect the space between the remaining nodes to become a straight line, or exhibit behaviors assigned to the respective nodes... so maybe a slight bend depending.
    I had been taking with @vectoradmin the other day about adding a segment selection option by holding down the alt/option key while dragging a selection box around several nodes to then delete at one time or move. (Much like what Affinity offers). I would expect the same result as I mentioned above. As a side-note I'm really excited for when that option gets added - it's really helpful in Affinity and would be great in VS
    If you look at the first video from the above post, you can see that deleting the nodes still left the path in a position it would not be in naturally without the nodes there. That was my main point with that.



  • @Boldline said in Node behavior versus other vector apps:

    @b77 If I'm deleting nodes, I would expect the space between the remaining nodes to become a straight line, or exhibit behaviors assigned to the respective nodes... so maybe a slight bend depending.

    Not sure everybody expects straight segments when deleting a node. CDR approximates the new segment — no straight segments unless you delete a cusp node between two other cusp nodes (obviously). Modern font editing apps do the same (Glyphs for instance approximates better than CDR), and there at least it's the preferred behavior because simplifying paths by deleting a node here and there is a daily routine in typeface design.

    Btw, what is AD's behavior with this?

    But anyway, your suggestion is easy to implement — the app needs to skip the math that approximates the new segment and just write the string of nodes + cp coordinates without the coordinates of the deleted node.

    So this could be just a Preferences setting ("Straighten/Flatten Segment on Node Delete"?).

    Should this be the default? I don't know. More feedback might be needed. 🙂


  • Global Moderator

    @b77 I think we're on the same page.


  • administrators

    @Boldline @b77 Indeed, this is easy to implement. Would this be better as an option (preferences), or a modifier (like Shift+Delete)?



  • @vectoradmin Oh, so modifier keys can be used with Backspace? Then Shift-Delete would be great for the alternative. 👍


  • Global Moderator

    @b77 I still think I agree with you overall, but I feel the thread is splitting into different related issues.
    My main concern was that the removal of nodes in VS do not result in an expected result. If you look at both videos I linked, it's the same vector situation but different results in VS compared to illustrator. What is VS doing upon deletion compared to illustrator?
    Is this what you are both discussing as a preferences setting or modifier keys?
    Second topic - how should the remaining nodes respond? I think we all agree they should hold their own settings. "the app needs to skip the math that approximates the new segment and just write the string of nodes + cp coordinates without the coordinates of the deleted node."

    Third topic- affinity has a great on the fly tool that allows for a quick freeform selection of nodes when using the direct selection tool by pressing and holding the option key as you drag around your selection. I would literally copy that feature. I don't know if this was what you were referring to @b77 , or if your delete shift idea was related to how nodes respond after some in between are deleted


  • administrators

    @Boldline About the first topic: VS approximates with a single segment (curve) the segments around the deleted nodes, by adjusting the control points of the two nodes around the deleted nodes. This also happens when multiple nodes are deleted. Yes, this is what could be a subject to preferences (do this or just leave the nodes as they are).

    Second topic: yes, if the option is added, that would leave the remaining nodes as they are (currently their control points are adjusted).

    Third topic: the Option+ selection for the node editor is in the backlog. The delete shift idea was related to how the nodes are acting (first and second topic) when something is deleted.



  • @Boldline said in Node behavior versus other vector apps:

    Here I am trying to fill in a section of this butterfly that union-ing it missed. You can see me deleting nodes at the bottom of the negative space that i want to get rid of to close up the hole. As I delete them, the path more or less retains the shape, even though there are no longer nodes there to support it doing so. I would expect it would close the section quickly instead...

    Yes, I rewatched the butterfly video and what VS is doing upon node deletion compared to AI is trying to keep the resulting segment as similar as possible with the general shape of the previous two segments.

    If you just want that hole gone quickly, indeed it feels like it's not happening because the app tries to keep the shape similar until the last node is deleted.

    But as I explained previously, in other situations this is preferable and it also makes sense for manually simplifying a path.

    ………

    I copied the original over to illustrator to see how it handled things - and as I expected, as I deleted each node starting in the same place, there was not a path resembling where the old nodes were anymore.

    Yes, Illustrator doesn't bother to retain the original shape — it just retracts the Bézier handles under the remaining nodes, resulting in a straight segment replacing the previous two segments.

    ………

    I would expect VS to handle things the same way Illustrator did - if only because it makes sense logically.

    If the nodes on each side of the deleted node are not cusp nodes, I wouldn't say it makes sense to change them to cusp nodes.

    But Shift-Delete could do this special straightening of the resulting segment. Or the other behavior (segment approximation), if most users expect straight segments no matter what.

    If there is something else I missed regarding node deletion, please write again.

    ………

    I don't use AD, so I didn't suggest anything from them. I asked what is AD's behavior when you delete a node.

    But I just remembered I have AD on the iPad, went and deleted a node there and it results in a "deflated" segment — something in between a straight segment and a good approximation.